Well, while messing around with my latest attempt to gamebreak, I found something newish, not quite a gamebreak, and not directly linked to my original intent. I was looking through my captured designs, as that’s one way I can learn to be better at constructing ships, and came across an Alliance armor tank, with i think it was 76.something armor. I looked at it, and saw what was to me, a fundimental flaw in it: it had a power plant. It’s inclusion dropped the armor value of the ship.
I decided to divise an armor tank. Hull requirements were: power at or greater then 9. And an Armor Bonus. Well, I got an armor tank to 86.something armor. WITH a repair module, and an offensive missile so it can kind of keep agro. What’s your guy’s best build?
I feel about tanks the way some others to about fighters, or the Tribe. I think they’re yucky. In reality, a ship that was nothing but armor and 1 tiny offensive weapon would be ignored by every rational ship captain; it is just the limitations of the GSB order system which makes them useful at all.
Be that as it may, it is possible to get an Alliance Alligator cruiser up to 88.19, without the repair module (uses too much power for that hull, which has the highest armor bonus). The Nomad Hareeb can get up to 81.6 and also has enough power for a repair module (although not for armor).
The Hareeb build i use does indeed have 81.6, with the repair module. I’m just curious to see what armor tank builds people use (as knowing a build is how you learn to beat it )
Urg. I have to say, Armour tanks really, really annoy me. I mean, I don’t even mind FT spam so much, simply because you can counter them fairly easily. But I really don’t think that you should be able to make a ship that is literally immune to every. single. weapon. in. the. game. OP, much?
indeed. I’m making a modded set of weapons that reflect my opinions on what REALLY would happen on space battles, namely energy weapons that DESTROY armor (at short ranges) and small, devistating missiles. And superior point defense
on topic: the reason i made this thread is i’m trying to make a small varient on armor tanking, SHIELD tanking. The probem is, lotta weapons have higher shield pen:P
Have you read In Death Ground and the Lost Fleet series? Both of them have what I consider to be excellent representations of what space combat might well be like. Although in the Lost Fleet books, there are no fighters…
Although, for another take on it, I highly recommend “Superiority”, by Arthur C. Clarke. A short story, I believe it is in the anthology called Expedition to Earth.
Who’s the author of the in Death Ground and Lost Fleet series? I’m familiar with the Clarke story, i have the “complete works” anthology of all his short stories… just under 1200 pages if i’m looking at the right book
I’ll be checking them out, as i am in need of a new, good series to read. I quite enjoyed the combat bits of the Honorverse stories
I actually dabbled with that a little upon starting Imperial campaign. I made some meatwall cruisers with both strong shields and 30+ armor, but I ended up giving them weapons anyway… because having no weapons just felt stupid. So I gave them scramblers and EMP to disrupt enemy front line. I don’t know… they work okay, but the shields drop pretty soon under concentrated plasma fire. Missiles drop to scramblers, but no stopping for plasma. So armored tanks are likely always a better choice, I just consider them borderline cheating.
The problem with shields is that you can’t really get resistance over 27, you can only increase strength after a certain point. I think you could reach something like 1200 with an Empire cruiser. Likely more with those multiphase shields, but I never use them. My meatwall design had something around 1000. That gives the ship good endurance, but it is nothing compared to armor 74+ tanks.
I know, but that’s literally the only counter. Also, in another thread about campaign, there were some very serious conversations about eliminating or reducing the lucky shot chance. Furthuremore, if there is an armour tank with an Anti-Fighter Weapon, or even a laser, it will kill quite a few of your fighters first. Its much worse with a repair system
Yes, I’d really like to see fighter weapon lucky shots either completely removed or drastically reduced. It would make fighter spamming unpractical. Yep, that would make armor tanks even better. I suppose armor benefits should reduce in the same way as shield benefits, so 73ish would be the practical maximum… that would help. Another solution would be weapons that ignore armor striking straight into the hull. Call them…say… tachyon flux weapons, with a very short range and high power usage with little shield penetration for balance. (I’ve never tried Order radiation weapons, but I presume their continual damage doesn’t ignore armor?)
I think heart of the problem lies in the targeting AI, though. I guess most armor tanks are just decoys to draw fire. Sure, you can make a whole fleet of armored tanks, but then they are seriously lacking in firepower and might be overwhelmed anyway.
I tend not to play with the Order, simply because their ships are so ‘meh’. Also, the colour scheme isn’t exactly wonderful either. However, If I’m not mistaken, Radiation only applies if it hits the hull itself, rendering it essentially useless w/out disruptors. I could be wrong, though. On the other hand, I’d like to see a maximum armour of around 72ish, simply so you could actually damage the ships with a proton beam. Otherwise, combined with the fighter nerf (which I support, btw), tanks would quickly become nigh unstoppable.
If it’s 72 then armor tank is useless. Simple as that.
They are quite useless now as is against plasma beams. Their only use is against draw out long range wars where neither side gets into beam range. And even then, Tribe still crush them anyway.
Well of course it’d be useless if it had armour under 73. Just as Fighters will become nearly useless on every ship with a >10 armour, should the critical chance be removed. The problem now is that, just with fighters, armour tanks are overpowered, though to a significantly lesser extent. Especially with a repair system, against everything except for fighters, they will win simply via wearing out the opposition. I’m not sure of a good solution, having a max armour would, as you said, render them useless, and having a short range armour piercing weapon varient has its problems as well.
Max armor 74 or something like that wouldn’t be useless. Just…less good, so it would be invulnerable till it suffered a few lucky hits. Besides, does every fleet really feature ships with proton beams (if I remember correctly and that was the weapon with most AP)?
As a proof of concept, try throwing your armor tanks against my Tribe Plasma Beam.
Tribe Plasma With Lure And Counter Lure - 4629041
I have used armor tanks pretty excessively. All my non Tribe long range has armor tanks. Even my rebel rush fleet has 55 tanks with them. They are not nearly as overpowered as the way you guys put it. Any fleet with at least 20% beam would eat them alive.
The point is, only 1 photon beam in an entire fleet is enough to bring armor tank from 73 to 70. Normal beam laser can finish the rest.
That said, 100% fighters are not overpowered either. They only work because most fleets only spend about 10% - 20% on anti fighters. If a cruiser fleet devotes 50% credits to anti fighters then 100% fighters won’t stand a chance.
Jack Campbell is the author of The Lost Fleet series which “ended” after the sixth book. He’s now starting up the second part of the series which will be called The Lost Fleet: Beyond the Frontier. It was a pretty good series, and an overall fun read. I’d also recommend Earth Strike: Star Carrier (Ian Douglas), and The Stars at War ( David Weber, includes In Death Ground).
Agreed. Unfortunately, most (if not all) of the people posting all-fighter challenges exclude frigates and cruisers as part of any possible response, so folks don’t get a chance to see that for themselves.
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