Cruiser Laser: why use anything else?

mass fast missile with 1 decoy did the trick. No cheap corner deployment or retreat was use either.

I also beat it with 15 ion/emp frigate. Only used 9165 of the 15000 credit due to pilot limitation. So it goes to show how good mass frigates are vs CL spam.

Since this particular CL spam isn’t that fast, Rocket + Plasma also works.

ok i guess tricks like decoying and cornering also work…

but my point is… CL spam is just SO much more powerful than other things like missile spam and such, which cant seem 2 hit a bloody frigate if they pour the whole burst into it

in all the cases ive seen so far:

1 case of cornering
2 case of decoying
1 case of frigs with no armor or shields firing away while cruisers get their shot (doesnt that make the cruisers decoys and those guys shooters?)(also i beat those 2 frigs with 2 fighters…)
and 1 case of pure armor defense…

just asking… what can fleets like these do outside of this challenge?

cuz my regular fleet can beat quite a bit of spams… but none against CL (assuming pilot isnt a factor, which i guess i kinda made it one… gotta repost the thing…)

I’ve seen one case of a ridiculously low pilot limit, one case of an incredibly small map, etc.

This challenge is specifically manipulated to favor CLs strongly and they still lose to some things.

aiight… i just beat RCIX’s SAC 4-8 with CL spam…

and posted retaliation

sry for those unfair conditions favoring CL :slight_smile:

Frigate spam don’t need to be corner deployed if the pilot count is high enough to use all the credits. I send you a new version on RCIX-SAC on center deploy to demonstrate this.

That being said, I need to update my tribe ships.

Wall of missiles and frigate spam are proven strategies. Sure they got their own counters, but so do CL. Point is, the counter to CL are far less useless than other counters outside of their situation (scrambler for missile).

well… missile spam i can generally beat with about 40 percent budget worth of frig spam

frig spam i can generally beat with about 30 percent budget worth of rocket fighters (assuming no designated decoy with shedload of armor)

that means a challenge with like 30 percent of rockets and like 40 percents worth of frigs plus the other 30 with things like cruisers or something can beat quite a bit of stuff… ive had limited success with such “generalist fleet”

problem is, those get their a$$es whooped by CL and i cant seem 2 have a solution for that without dedicating a whole fleet against enemy CL spam and then having them wiped out by say… frigs around half their size

so… if CL spam is a general counter for a balanced fleet, how is it not a game breaker?

plz reply

thx

gunny

EDIT: just ran some tests:
rocket fighter beat 30000 budget frig spam at less than 8500 budget (less than 30%) ; casualties are less than 30 percent

frig spams beat 30000 budget missile spam at lass than 12100 budget; no casualties

the same frig spam then failed against 30000 budget CL spam; inflicting no casualties

the 30000 budget missile spam then failed against the 30000 budget CL spam; inflicting 38 percent casualties

what am i doing wrong?

ship designs follow:

rocket fighter:
hull: rebel phoenix fighter
cost: 65
1 x fighter rocket launcher
1 x fighter engine II
2 x empty slots

fast frigate:
hull: rebel loki frigate
cost: 711
2 x frigate engine III
1 x shield generator II
1 x frigate engine II
1 x power generator III
1 x crew module II
1 x rapid fire laser
1 x ion cannon

CL spammer:
hull: swarm sekhmet cruiser
cost: 2246
4 x CL
2 x ultraheavy armor
2 x supercharged engine
2 x multiphasic shield
1 x reflecive shield
1 x power generator III
1 x power generator II
1 x reinforced crew bay
1 x pulse laser

missile battleship:
hull: alliance python cruiser
cost: 3333
5 x cruiser missile launcher
4 x multi warhead missile launcher
2 x ultraheavy armor
2 x supercharged engine
1 x zero-g crew
1 x power generator III
1 x reflective shield
1 x fast recharge shield
1 x multiphasic shield

Yes frigate spam sucks without AF decoys, but that’s why my frigate spam has a whole row dedicated to them. Ignoring AF decoys in frigate spam is like ignoring beam laser/pulse laser in a CL spam. It doesn’t happen in good frigate spam. The question is how much AF decoys it has, and rather it’s better to spam more rocket fighters or to skip them entirely.

As far as Frigate Spam vs Mass Missile goes, the challenge # 2590894 by mrblitzll (a rocket spam) speaks for itself. Again the point is that good Missile Spam does come with Rocket/Painter fighters, and has no trouble against frigate spam.

That, and 100% fighters with 2 stationary cruiser in the corner can also kill CL spam with armor, given enough pilots.

im doing a pure spam scenario:
if u have AF decoy i can have a few cruisers on the line with pulse beams beating them down and set the rockets on escort
i cant seem 2 find that challenge, send me a copy?
in the corner… nothing else need 2 be beaten by cornering, y should CL spam?

Sure you can fine tune your ship to beat my challenge, and in turn I can fine tune my ship to beat yours. Fine tuning just shows that the challenger always has an advantage against the poster and doesn’t prove CL is overpowered.

The frigate spam I posted was not fine tuned to beat CL. I posted it as a general challenge at 4590770. The spam has been more or less been the same.

i REALLY have no idea what that post is about…

elaborate?

i never sed anything about fine tuning…

As a pure intellectual matter, I think this is going at the wrong direction. So I will try another approach. I will post my reasons and leave it at that.

Long Range vs Rush

Short range weapon will always have more DPS than long range ones if the game is to remain balanced. Therefore, going short range is an all or nothing approach. If a rush is successful, then Short Range wins, if a rush is unsuccessful, then long range wins.

3 long range weapons that has any hope of stopping a rush is Fast Missile, Rockets, and Beams (normal or fusion). Plasma is usually way too slow for this purpose.

Rush

In regard to short range, 4 weapons in particular stands out; Ion Cannon, Howitzer, Rad Gun, and Cruiser Laser.

Ion Cannon yields the most DPS for the cost. Also comes with most speed and EMP. Their biggest weakness is frigate’s low shield resistance. As such, decoys are always needed to let them get close. On maps with the right credit/pilot ratio (such as RCIX-SAC), these puppies can really dominate.

Howitzer has the lowest DPS for it’s cost. It’s advantage comes in speed and HP. Howitzer ships can reach over 0.4 speed, allowing it to rush through most long range with ease. The sacrifice of DPS for speed makes them the loser in short range to short range combat.

Rad Gun is the slowest bunny, worst in a rush, but it eats tribes (and therefore howitzer) for breakfast. It’s superior tracking also make them good against Frigate Spam.

Cruiser Laser is the second slowest bunny. It has less rush capability than a Howitzer, but can beat howitzer and rad gun in close combat. Their low tracking make them particularly weak against frigate spams however.

Conclusion

Most challenges are not rush proof, be it CL, Frigate or Howitzer. CL, while easier to use, is not particularly overpowered compare to the other rush weapons. All of them are fully capable of winning against many balanced fleets. But all are far from indestructible once posted. As I always said, the advantage is always on the challenger’s side.

Actually, howitzer has over twice the DPS compared to CL.

Howitzer: 6/60 = 0.1
CL: 20/480 = ~0.5

I’d tentatively disagree. It depends entirely on how long your target can last, but the Rad Gun surpasses CL for DPS after 2.4 seconds (see graph). And then considering that the Rad Gun has more range, I think it’s just flat out better.

Radiation don’t deal their rad damage against shields/armor.

The information on the display screen for howitzer is misleading. They have “salvo” which lowers their average attack speed is 260, Their DPS is roughly 23, half that of a CL.

On a side note, my tribe deploy would be godly if howitzer has 100 DPS.

Why does that matter? You still need to take out their hull anyway. The damage isn’t being wasted.

Can you show me where I can find this information out?

Radiation gun does not deal radiation damage if the bullet couldn’t get through shield/armor. In short, radiation only start to work after a bullet hits the ship for hull damage.

All the information for a module are saved in txt format. You can find out by going to tribe/data/modules in you GSB directory.

lets not forget that howitzer fire in bursts

Radiation guns are amazing once you hit the unarmored hull, but not so amazing if their shields or armor is still functioning. Its a great secondary gun, but you need to give your ships a shield cracking weapon.

Sort of like using plasma and beam weapons, or missiles and beams. Plasma or missiles drop the shields, and then the beam weapons carve up the hull. Same idea.

You can still get death by radiation, even if they have their shields up.

I just notice your frigate doesn’t have EMP. I am not surprise CL kills those frigates.

Plus rapid fire laser sucks. Ion frigate needs 2 ion and 1 emp2, which is easy to pull off with Swarm Horus.

For the missile cruiser, you need to get rid of those silly cruiser missiles. Their DPS is pathetic due to 1 missile out at one time limitation. MWM is also not good when fired at long range for the same reason. Fast missile is the only missile with any chance of stopping a rush.

The point is, the CL Cruiser you posted is significantly better than the Frigate and Missile Cruiser you posted.

trust me, ive used those ships for a while in regular challenges, they have proven themselves pretty useful for me…

if u dont think they’re good enuff maybe u can send me ur ships?

EDIT:
i tried 2 use fast missiles and power/crew cant hold up
also tried 2 get ions but power wont hold up which means i have 2 get 1 less engine or sumthing

also ur horus ships… how fast r they?
also i put up a smart bomb pulse on my CL so that should hold off some EMP

EDIT EDIT:
swapped my missile battleship’s missiles for 8 fast missile and one more armor (not enuff power or crew for anything else, i needed 2 downgrade 1 supercharge 2 hi-efficiency for that 2 even work)
made another “dakka-man” CL cruiser, now with MOAR DAKKA!!! as well as a smart bomb pulse

then made another test with 30,000 budget…
considering i bothered posting this i think u can guess who won :stuck_out_tongue:

EDIT EDIT EDIT:
PHEW i been doing a lot of tests lately :stuck_out_tongue: