This is just a bother.
I can’t think of any weapon that can outgun cruiser lasers. If the enemy is fast and has tough shields, then there’s nothing you can do but counter with cruiser lasers! Though, maybe if you’re Tribe you can hit them with howitzers and spam them back.
I hope there’s something in the works for fixing this…
Post the fleet youy think can only be beaten with cruiser lasers. Give me your ingame name. I will destroy your fleet with each race without using a single cruiser laser.
And i never use federation, so that should be interesting.
Someone record this. I want to watch it over some popcorn.
Having just run the Gravity Well mission, I can attest that the Supply Limits thing covers that pretty well.
Though I will agree that I get gas reading about all the super-spam fleets out there (pretty much regardless of the type of spam).
Crakker, I haven’t made a fleet like that. But, I have been playing against particularly difficult to kill fleets from Spooky2 (try 1/25, moderate rebel fleet). What bothers me is how you can forbid fighters, the obvious counter to the issue.
The less obvious counter in that case is frigates.
The ships in that challenge appear to be fairly quick and double or triple shielded… and on a small map. He’s paying a large defense/speed premium for a fast ship that can always close the distance and beat up on any single opposing ship.
Take that advantage away and just outnumber the hell out of him. EMP missiles will make that effect a lot stronger… he only has 5 ships.
I must admit, that if there was an “obvious counter” to my grand plan, and I had the option of forbidding it, I would do so with a clear conscience. It’s the old supervillain “I bet you can’t beat me without using your powers” gambit - and when the hero inevitably takes you up on the challenge, you shoot him.
Forbidding things in challenges is a legitimate equaliser for challenges being static and replayable. If you had to cover for every possible combination (fighter spam, cruiser spam, knife fighters, missile or plasma standoff etc), then inevitably your counters will be spread too thin and easily beaten. If you allow fighters, you need AA, and your enemies can make the challenge artificially easier just by not using fighters.
I suppose it is apparently exacerbated because fighters are at the moment quite extreme counters, able to defeat fleets without AA with no casualties, but are ineffective against AA unless well handled.
If ships could teleport to the front lines, cruiser lasers would be OP. However even the fastest cruisers take quite some time to get to where your cruisers are.
If all of the cruiser laser spam ships reach your fleet with their shields up, then you lack offense. Making a glass canon is really easy, and if positioned right they can be perfect for dealing with that sort of thing. This is the sort of way a balanced fleet could take out a cruiser laser spam fleet.
What im saying is that cruiser lasers arent the only option, not by a long shot. You can easily put a armour tank in front, missiles at the back, and watch in glee as the cruiserlasers bounch off the armour. Or you can use fast missiles, or rockets. Plasma is even an option for slow fleets.
I do take issue with custom scenarios, to a certain point. I have made challanges to highlight their faults. Luckily, im playing less and less now, it seems to have dies down.
The challenge he’s talking about with the Minotaurs is not so easy. Missiles miss and are absobed by the shields a lot, so they go down rather slowly. The armor is cut appart by the beam laser he has attached to the thing. Plasma is completely out of the question.
You need to get at least a bit creative to beat that sort of thing.
I couldnt find anyone under that name who posted a challange. Any other way of finding it? Im always on the lookout for a hard challange.
I’ve attached a picture of the challenge’s listing for you.
And yeah, I know you need to be creative, exploit their weakness, and such. But it appears that you can make fleets that require cruiser laser spam just to counter them. And that is what’s bothering me.
Tried: spamming shield-breaking weapons; fast frigates set to retreat whilst spamming missiles; fast frigates with EMP/Rapid-Lasers; cruisers with similar designs…
My only victory has been with the Tribe.
Yeah, I know. But hey, doesn’t make me any more pleased about it.
Frigate missile systems (except the torpedo) will not penetrate cruiser shields.
How fast is “fast”? There’s no need to overdo it.
Outright ion cannon spam will crush those cruisers, to the point where they don’t even stand much of a chance (+70% wins).
Other options will work, but they need to either be similarly high DPS or exploit EMP lockdown in some way, there’s just not much space or time on that map.
Using multiple shields will help if you’re worried about the beams.
I’ve not come close to a +70% win with frigate spam like that, more like 40% or lower. To even win with frigate ion spam, I’ve had to use the Imperial Weapons Platform to do so.
I will admit its challanging. But its not really appropriate. Its a small map, that needs engines, with no fighters. Taking away counters, and not using the same weapon isnt actually relevant at this point. Please see my challange, that i made some time ago to highlight this, called impossible! lenient. Try to beat it without using missiles/rockets. Or just missiles.
Just a heads up, youll start at far range, 1% engine speed against a fleet of far range rockets, no fighters allowed.
End the missiles spam? I think i need to create that thread…
I hit the challenge called “Trick” which uses a similar tactic with fast missile launchers by using 3 missile scramblers. Cruiser lasers have no such counter.
And your use of the custom scenario highlights no weakness … aside from the overpowered ability to limit a scenario.
Fast missiles have way to little range. Even with the fastest, most armoured ship, and scramblers, you would make it, i assure you. If you do beat it, try impossible lenient.
Up close, cruiser lasers have no counter. Far away, missiles have no counter, with no AA or fighters, fighters have no counter…
Oh wait, those things are connected…
Its the game as a whole. Unless we are playing rock paper scissors, there are going to be superior weapons and modules. Hell, there are better races, with The Tribe being the easiest by far. End the tribe spam first.
But dont really, cause its the only thing that keeps the challanges interesting.
That seems rather unnecessary.
26 two-ion rebel lokis (so 52 well-distributed ion cannons) nets me up to a 76% win.
Since you’re up against something that recharges, the return on additional DPS is nonlinear - don’t skimp on firepower against that type of cruiser.
It’s not classy, but it’s a demonstration of the kind of cheap firepower frigates bring along. Those cruisers won’t be able to compete with that until they start dropping speed or weapons in favor of other things, and that’s exactly what you want.
Such a frigate design would normally get mauled by rocket fighters, but they’ve been taken care of by the scenario design for you. Rather convenient.
Spamming almost anything can saturate responses. I guess the natural way to deal with this at the game design level is to make each item (module, hull, etc.) more expensive the more of them that are used in a given deployment.
To give an example: If you use up to 10 modules of weaponX in your fleet they cost 100 points a piece. If you use more than 10 up to 100 then they cost 200 points a piece. If you use more than 100 but less than 1000, they cost 300 points a piece. The exact numbers would have to balanced. This means that actual ship costs would not be determined until deployment.
This approach is much more elegant as well as easier and fairer than predetermined supply limits. It would also take care of any kind of spam, not just the kinds the challenger has thought of or doesn’t like.
