petition for tribe nerfing


#1

should tribe be nerfed?

  • yes
  • no

0 voters

just checking how many ppl want tribe nerfed…

if there’s enuff maybe we can send a collective message to cliff to request a nerf

plz vote :slight_smile:

gunny


#2

Personally, I find the tribe to be the least balanced race.
I would be ALL for Cliff re-balancing them to be more in line with rebels and feds (the two i consider balanced, and it appears other do as well).
But “nerf” isnt’ the right word. Yes vote for intent, just disagree on the execution


#3

But I think Cliff uses tribe… :stuck_out_tongue:


#4

lol there goes that idea… :stuck_out_tongue:


#5

I had to say yes, in the sense that I agree with the general idea that’s been floated ad infinitum in the forums of lowering the HP bonus. I don’t pretend to have analyzed it in depth to the extent that some players have, but experience has shown me that I don’t enjoy fighting Tribe scenarios or challenges, and it’s largely because even with no sign of repair systems, the damn things will not die. I don’t mind the damage soak in concept, it just seems excessive to me.

My two cents, anyway.


#6

I agree with you, using just 1 rocket launcher and the engine (no extra energy needed) in a fighter, it reaches 2.00 or + (speed), enough for evade any shots, the defense beams, the laser turrents, the fighter lasers, the howitzers and the limpet launchers just cant follow you. The best race for do this is the empire, their fighters are superfast with this combination.

Pros:
Fast speed
No turrent can easy target you
Enough firepower for shot down frigates (Pretty Fast!!) and cruisers
In swarms, the first wave of missiles shot down ANY shield
With an allied cruiser for shot down the enemy armor… fighters will be UNSTOPABLE
Add some scuad with laser painter and tah dah! beatiful fireworks!

Cons:
Some antifighter misiles can catch you (not if you kill the frigates first!)
This configuration makes the fighter lighter and easy to kill (hahaha if you slow down it first)
Some ships with alot of armor and Adv. Armor repairs can make hard to kill that cruiser. (not if u have emp)
They cant shot down other fast fighters

Using this tactic i win ALL my scenarios vs the tribe :smiley:


#7

Tribe dominated the first NEC, even with 1000x Serenity fighters in play.

Realistically, how many effective HP does double armor get you vs. laser fighters? 1000? Well, tribe gets that HP for free. Dual armor costs 400~500 credits per ship. Tribe could easily invest those credits and turn them into over a hundred tractor beams (literally) - couple that with effective placement and ship specialization, Tribe easily has the cheapest and best fighter defense of any race. Place your AA cruisers at the back of your fleet, and they probably wont even die to fighters.

Tribe has no weakness. Even what we would intuitively think to be a weakness, is not actually a weakness. That’s how OP tribe is.


#8

I agree with thc, they’re not horribly overpowered (like the very first version of the imperial shield support beam) but they still are too powerful. This idea has been floating around forever, I’m kinda surprised nothing has happened yet. Here’s a parallel example, many players realized that armour was underpowered-it fell far too easily and was a laughable defence next to shields. People discussed it on the forums, made requests and…Cliff upped the damage absorbance values. They could still use a bit more, but every little bit helps. Even a 10% reduction in the tribe’s hp bonus would help a lot to balance them. I will ask around to see how people have made formal request to Cliff before.


#9

well this is what im trying to do…

if the vote comes through maybe we can play it off that way…


#10

Damage absorbance for frigates will be going up in the next patch. I may consider a minor tribe nerf, just a small fractional nudge downwards.
Up to my neck in campaign debugging right now, but the campaign open beta will also patch the game with some play balancing.


#11

Oke, de best way of dealing with the tribe, is to deal heavy blows to them.
Plasma blasts seem to do that for you, the combination of plasma blasts, emp (wich paralises the repairdrones), cruiser lasers,
fast misiles, and yes fighters!
They all do their respective tricks.

Now from the Tribe point of view:

  • fighters can be countered, but you just need to build a lot of armor and shields on your vessels, wich reduces the need for say, repair drones…hmmm!

  • plasma launchers can be countered with cloacking stuff or just the keep moving order and plenty of trusters.

It’s the combination of factors that really make the Tribe helpless, simply a more complex strategy kicks ass guys, so, yes I do think the Tribe is balanced, they just go for quality though, not so much for quantity.
It’s what I like about this game, you can try out different things, go for quantity, you pick the swarm/ the flock, go for quality pick them Tribe slugs space hippies!
Go for speed, the rebels, go for shields go for empire, pick the Empire…etc. etc. haven’t played the Nomads yet though, wonder what their gig is!


#12

I hear ya buddy. I can’t argue that in some circumstances that HP boost is very hard to counter. Your point about the investment in dual-armour is definitely a good one. (Although a single plate of Ultraheavy can often be enough to keep a cruiser alive against fighters - and Tribe AA solutions do come with an attendant power & crew cost).

The fact is, I’ll never be able to make a truly cogent argument for Tribe not being OP, as I’m by no means one of the number-crunchers who post here. My argument is more based on the fact that even the best Tribe fleets are beatable without ever having to resort to specialist anti-Tribe designs, or making significant tactical changes. And I do think that fighters are one of the keys to beating them - nine times out of ten, if I can’t beat a Tribe fleet on the first attempt, simply untethering my fighters and letting them rip right in will take out enough cruisers before the real engagement starts to swing the victory.

And if the opposing player has invested enough in cruiser-based AA to really make a difference, then all those credits spent on tractors and CDLs are credits that arent being used for things that’ll kill my cruisers :wink:

The other weak point to Tribe, as far as I can see, is their shield penalty. Most decent Tribe cruisers designs will have some form of shielding for fighter / beam defence. That means more credits (and power, and crew) being spent on modules that only have half the strength of any other races’. I know resistance is the most important thing usually, but half-strength shields means that they drop a whole lot quicker than those of the other factions, meaning that in most cases my beams will start carving up a Tribe opponent a good few seconds before my own shields go down.

Again, all of this purely comes from my own experience. If the maths doesn’t add up, then I’ll happily admit I’m wrong.


#13

all frigs? or just tribe?


#14

Plasma is a low DPS weapon and EMP does not stop repair.

I have very little faith in a poll. This forum couldn’t even arrive at a consensus for the ISSB being overpowered - there seems to be this perpetual confusion between “beatable” and “balanced”.

Can an Empire fleet beat a given Tribe fleet? Yes.
Does that Empire player have anywhere near the margin of error that the Tribe player does? Hell no.

That margin of error translates into diversity, the range of possible counter methods, and contingency plans for other fleets. If you’re playing against Tribe, your hands are tied.

I really dislike their balancing mechanic. Aside from the obvious absorption of damage, the increased health makes it take longer to partially or completely disable weapons. The hitpoints also throw a huge bias toward cruisers into the game for both sides; Tribe frigates in comparison can barely survive with the 50% shield/armor penalty, Non-Tribe frigates typically take too many losses to maintain mass in the extended battles Tribe can cause.

Since you need to burn down hull points, the emphasis when fighting Tribe will always be on one stat: DPS. This is not particularly healthy if we want to encourage generalist fleets. Any weapon that trades off too much DPS for penetration or other utility becomes suspect; Weapons teetering on the edge of usefulness already (disruptor bombs, fighter torpedoes, midrange plasma) become hilariously poor choices.


#15

You’re right of course, that other races can still compete without being dedicated anti-tribe. I’m still amazed how well balanced this game is otherwise, and tribe isn’t game-breaking or anything.

There’s that, but (without putting down anyone’s opinion), many of these votes simply come from positions of casual play where one might not really understand how to optimize fleets and ship design. I do hope Cliffski heeds the opinions of us more hardcore gamers :wink:


#16

Couldn’t said it better myself. I mean with so much advantage on the challenger’s side, of course the challenger is going to win eventually.

You are describing the challenger’s advantage here. Tribe becomes a problem if we remove the ability to fix a fleet to compensate (such as when you post a challenge yourself), or if multiple fleets needs to be defeated so you can’t simply focus on one (such as in NEC).

Even if the Tribe player is investing in AA, they are simply using the credits players of another race use on armors. What end up happening is that the Tribe player has both the stronger AA and 2x HP. This is especially true in NEC, when Tribe actually pays the least against those 1000x fighters because an armor/tribe repair lure is so good at absorbing fighter fires.

As far as shield goes, often times Tribe don’t even need to use them to win. Most fighters can’t take on those serenity hybrids to begin with. So it takes a pretty fine toned fleet to abuse the lack of shields.

My experience tells me the game becomes significantly easier just by using Tribe. I personally banned myself from using Tribe for a period of time. While I was still posting new challenges in SAC and NEC, it was much more of an uphill battle in most cases. The game feels significantly easier the moment I start using Tribe again.


#17

This is why i say it is unbalanced.
To me, a “balanced” race is one that doesn’t have ONE weak point. Rebels? multiple. Empire? Multiple! (although Empire has it’s own problems. Namely, FT swarms). Feds? Multiple… think you can see where i’m going. Tribe? The only thing from my experience you can do with the tribe is to stack your DPS as high as you can go, and hope your defenses will hold out long enough for you to drop their fire density enough to knock out a signifigent portion of their fleet


#18

updates for the next patch sound great :slight_smile:

as far as DPS goes, beam lasers as a whole do the most damage per shot, and cruiser lasers have the highest damage output in the game, with the exception of the order’s radiation cannon when used against just hull integrity