Please discuss and tell me what you think. If you have not seen many Tribe fleets and do not have any idea what I’m talking about, try this challenge. ID 4606924
EDIT: Quoting myself again for those who are too lazy to read this whole topic.
Just forget the word “rush”. Tribe cruisers are the main problem.
Here are the suggestions to fix this problem, gathered from this topic:
Utopia cruiser size from 180 to over 200 suggested by me.
Entirely remove hull integrity bonus(from all Tribe ships?) to force Tribe users to use repair modules suggested by yurch.
+50% hull integrity, -25% shields and -25% armor(for all Tribe ships?) suggested by 123stw.
+25% hull integrity, -25% shields and -25% armor(for all Tribe ships?) suggested by thc.
Tribe fighters are unique in that they’re a pain in the ass to drop as quickly. Whether or not they lose in straight battles to swarm or rebel fighters isn’t always relevant. There are other uses for fighters.
What’s really ridiculous about Tribe has always been the cruisers. It’s a bit disappointing to see successful Tribe fleets that make no attempt to defend themselves with shields, armor, antifighter, or even repair measures.
Intuitively you’d think the race would need to have a bit of extra defensive expenditure to compensate, a not get a free pass to ignore those costs entirely.
Believe me, I tried, both in raw number crunching and on the field. Except for a shield in some rare situations, having a repair/shield/armor literally makes them worst. I was really hoping that a repair module is useful enough to warrant it’s cost, it just wasn’t.
Dealt with the challenge. I retaliated. I just pulled up a saved challenge that fit the parameters. I have a tendancy to ignore fighters. The only time a fighter is dangerous is really when it is going after a high value asset - like a cruiser. About the tribe in general - yeah they’re tough but nerfing them? Dunno. I enjoy playing against them.
The only race I think needs help is the Empire.
Not sure of the Alliance don’t see much of them.
I’m not saying Tribe is unbeatable or that there are no counters against it. I’m not saying Tribe fighters beat all other fighters. I’m saying that like this you can beat every challenge that does not 1. have very very high long range damage output. 2. have equal or bigger amount of much faster fighters. I have seen really nice balanced fleets made by others and I have even made many myself. They work well against any other fleets and spam fleets, but do not stand a chance against Tribe rush. It just needs too much pure attack power to counter. So the main problem that I’m trying to solve is not only those fighters, but this tactic as a whole. It beats just about every challenge with ease.
I am not sure what you are trying to say - was what you posted not your “tribe rush fleet”? Because what I challenged was with a normal balanced fleet. Now I am not saying a balanced fleet will win against everything - but I can rework my balanced fleets to deal with most spams.
As for my balanced fleets
They all have long range weapons.
I like having high fighter counts - but I do not rely on my fighters for anti-fighter support but for supporting the fleet.
For rushes I make sure most of my ships have at least one CL. Also thats what the fighters are for - the chew up most unshielded cruisers from 0-1000.
Tribe Howitzer Rush is like a Zealot Rush on Starcraft. It only works on the unprepared. In the end, the slowest bunny wins the race, and since rushes like howitzer, CL, or Frigate Spams cannot afford to be slow, they will get outgunned even up close as long as the other bunny is slow enough.
That’s the screaming klaxon and flashing lights right there.
+100% hull is nonsense. They’ve got a high speed racial repair module, let them use that in conjunction with the defenses the other races actually have to buy.
Tribe repair is useless even if you remove their health bonus.
They are useless now because co-operate neutralizes them down to around 10% supply used against a serious fleet. Lower their HP will make them even worst against the co-op tag. It’s a toy that works well when you are already winning, and fails when you need them most.
Repair works with other race because they are paired with 70+ armor. This is simply impossible as Tribe.
The only piece of defense equipment worth using in some situations would be shield.
CL/Laser is even worst in rushing because they are slower. They only beat howitzer due to the “slower bunny wins the race”. But are worthless against fleet with significant long range.
Cost efficiency wise, CL is no better than howitzer if you are trying to maintain a certain speed. The only time CL is better is when speed is disregarded.
If you don’t believe me try RCIX SAC 19 or 21. #4606221, #4607118. Do send a retaliation if you rush through both of them.
You know, it will be great if you can rush through the past 4 RCIX-SAC challenges with mostly short range weapon, be it CL or howitzer. I am really hoping it wouldn’t turn into a long range war and someone come up with a way to rush through all of them. More info here.
I just tried one of those challenges that you suggested and couldn’t win. I thought you meant that each ship in the fleet has one or two long range weapons, not that I’m against another fleet of Tribe cruisers filled with missile weapons.
As I already mentioned before Tribe rush is not very effective against this kind of fleet.
Also try 17 #4605801. It’s a howitzer spam so in principle should be easy to take out with a CL spam (being the slower bunny). The question is how much speed you need to sacrifice to win? Mine have 0.39. Please put up a retaliation and tell me the speed of your CL ship, so we can see what happens when I remove engines to match your speed.