no that’s bullshit, and I’m deleting it. that’s because this server is MY property. See how that works?
Ha! Your last post there cracked me up enough to post a comment here. 
Which brings me to a VERY good analogy…
Wanting to make a comment on your board here, is like buying a DRM’d video game, or a game at retail or from an online retailer. It’s like pulling teeth! I wanted to quickly make a very short comment, the one above. That’s it. If I had been able to quickly and conveniently been able to make that comment, I would have (I’ve done it only to make a point… so stay with me here…).
I understand that like video game piracy, and just as irritating, you have to avoid spam on your site here. So, you make me jump through hoops to leave a comment. You forced me to register… ok, fair enough, I’ll register. Then you “forced” me to open my email program to find your confirmation email. That SUCKS ASS. Checking email sucks at times, this was one of them. I didn’t have Outlook open, so decided to jump to an online reader of mine. After hitting refresh 5 times waiting 5min for it, I almost gave up, then checked my spam folder and guess what? There you were. So moving on, I clicked your link. Did it automatically log me in and and say “welcome Dan!”. No. I had to log in ad nauseum. Now this part isn’t your fault, but just highlights my frustration with it… after being told 3 times that my login information wasn’t correct (GRRRR!!!WTF!!), I realized my caps lock was on. I accidently brushed against it somehow I suppose.
So then I turn off my caps, re-enter my correct login information and am I good to go? HELL NO!! Because I tried “TOO MANY TIMES” to log in, I had to re-enter my login, password (twice) and a generated ‘code’ … JUST TO GET IN! … again, WTF???
THIS is the frustration of the game buyer and the online world. We’ve gotten used to instant information, so we want instant results and instant satisfaction. All I wanted to do was to leave a comment and look what I went through.
Buying a game can have the same experience at times. It takes too much time, too much effort, too frustrating. I can waste 10-15min getting frustrated as all hell with logging in to a buying system or new purchasing experience, or I can go to piratebay, type do a quick search and download while I make a cup of joe… done.
Just like the music industry ‘sorta’ came to the realization that making it EASIER to purchase music comes more sales, the game industry needs to come to that same realization. Steam works… I agree with everyone who loves it, but you can’t purchase every game there. BTW, I’m not justifying pirating to avoid the cost of a game, there IS NO justification no matter how you look at it. Laziness ISN’T an excuss… but rather is part of the problem facing developers.
I suppose one solution that I thought of a while ago just may work. I would love to download a torrent of a FULL GAME and be told in advance that it’s a FULL DEMO with a time limit. If you tell me it works with no codes, no crack needed, no spyware, etc… I’ll try it. Just trust me, I will. I’d rather get a good download that’s easy to use, than screw with codes and crack and viruses. THEN… and here’s where the “idea” comes in, when it gets to the point where I’m enjoying a game, don’t make me leave the game!! Let me click on menu/purchase now and keep me IN THE GAME, then ask me for a credit card number and DONE. Don’t make me re-enter a code, don’t force me out of the fun I’m having at the time to check my email and confirm anything. Just make the sale THEN AND THERE and I’m sold. Make it EASY for me to buy your game. Get it?
It’s a model I thought of a while ago and although it will be tough technically, it’s definately possible. I’ve got the game installed, I’m playing, I’m enjoying it and while I am, I KNOW I can just purchase it right IN THE GAME. If I’m having fun, I’ll do just that. Why? Because I’m lazy and you just made it easy for me to purchase your game.
Thanks for listening. Oh, btw, I don’t play very many games like I used to. Family, work, etc… all gets in the way. I love a hardcore game, but I’m the “pick it up and GO” type gamer, that’s why I love driving games. I have little patience for RTS or MMO games.
Cheers! Great thread!
Dan B
Carlsbad, CA
USA
I thought about my idea a little more… and wondered HOW I wouldn’t mind being interrupted while playing a torrent-downloaded game of yours.
Say I download your game from piratebay and I’m happily playing along. I would think you’d choose to put a message in your game right where it gets interesting. Basically because if the downloader hasn’t installed or yet played your game to that point, they weren’t going to purchase it anyway. There’s a HUGE amount of ‘pirates’ that aquire games only because they can. They collect them, like a baseball card collection or something. Most rarely play them. I know PLENTY, so just trust me on that.
To continue, lets say I’m enjoying your game then at said point the game just pauses and a small message pops up. This is where you have a SECOND of time to get me to read your message because at that point, I’m saying “oooh crap… it’s frickin shareware (or demo) and I thought it was the full game!”. You don’t want me saying that to myself, or leaving a message online telling everyone to avoid this download. In my opinion, THIS would grab my attn right away:
" WAIT! You can keep playing!! Don’t worry, I’m going to let you keep playing my game, and I’ll only interrupt you this once… or maybe twice (but that’s it!). I hope you’re enjoying my game, I worked hard to make it and this is just a plea to ask you to purchase my game if you’re enjoying it. I make it VERY EASY to pay for it. Just click on the Menu button, click on PURCHASE and you’ll stay IN THE GAME you’re currently playing! You just enter your credit card information, it costs you only $14.95 to continue the fun, and you’ll receive an emailed confirmation and personal thanks from me, the person who wrote this game for you to enjoy. As well, you’ll get that good feeling knowing you did the right thing, you’ve supported an independent programmer, and you’ve helped “stick it to the man”… you know, those large corporations that charge too much for their games. You’ll show them who’s right, won’t you? Thank you!"
Ok… that’s a lot to read, but I’d be entertained by it and at the point it shows up, I’ll buy your game.
Thanks for listening…
Dan B
Poincaré referred to Cantor’s ideas as a “grave disease” infecting the discipline of mathematics, and Kronecker’s public opposition and personal attacks included describing Cantor as a “scientific charlatan”, a “renegade” and a “corrupter of youth.” Writing decades after Cantor’s death, Wittgenstein lamented that mathematics is “ridden through and through with the pernicious idioms of set theory,” which he dismissed as “utter nonsense” that is “laughable” and “wrong”.
You wouldn’t be the first person to hate what rubs up against the cherished ideals of modern western society. Believe what you will but digital product itself once produced are infinite in supply and they don’t obey the law of supply and demand. Go against science and physics if you must but certainly don’t call it bullshit. The laws of information are different from the laws that govern matter.
Socrates believed the best way for people to live was to focus on self-development rather than the pursuit of material wealth. He always invited others to try to concentrate more on friendships and a sense of true community, for Socrates felt this was the best way for people to grow together as a populace. His actions lived up to this: in the end, Socrates accepted his death sentence when most thought he would simply leave Athens, as he felt he could not run away from or go against the will of his community; as mentioned above, his reputation for valor on the battlefield was without reproach.
The idea that humans possessed certain virtues formed a common thread in Socrates’ teachings. These virtues represented the most important qualities for a person to have, foremost of which were the philosophical or intellectual virtues. Socrates stressed that “virtue was the most valuable of all possessions; the ideal life was spent in search of the Good. Truth lies beneath the shadows of existence, and it is the job of the philosopher to show the rest how little they really know.”
did socrates say it was ok to take the fruits of another mans labour for no rewards?
I must have missed that bit…
My two cents/pence:
I stumbled across Democracy 2 some time ago, read a few positive reviews and liked the concept. I thought about buying it - but in the end I personally couldn’t justify buying a luxury good for what was, at that time, a high price relative to my income. If I had bought it at that original price, I’m sure I would have regretted buying it just by virtue of the fact that it was a game and not, say, food, petrol, rent, a drink with a friend, a night out with my wife, etc. Then, if I had bought it and later regretted buying it, I doubt I would have bought another Positech game.
However, I didn’t pirate Democracy 2. I wanted to support Cliff and encourage Positech to release more games and keep supporting old games, but genuinely couldn’t justify the price. Positech’s “about” page also really enamored me to the company. Yes - the pictures of cats were an effective marketing strategy.
Then, when Democracy 2 went on sale on Gamersgate for half price as part of a weekend deal, I bought a copy straight away. It probably didn’t really matter how large the price-cut was, it just mattered that there was a price cut. You see, I did actually want to buy Democracy 2, but, as I said, couldn’t justify it. Even a little price-cut helped sway me and kept me from regretting the purchase because I was able to think “I got a good deal.” And the fact that the price-cut only applied for a limited period also gave me that little extra nudge. Now that I’m playing the game, and very much enjoying it (with no regrets), I’m more likely to buy future Positech games, and at a higher price without “buyer’s guilt.”
So: when pricing future releases - I would plan for a price-cut from the beginning (even if it’s only a very modest one). Having said that, I’ve also heard that the majority of sales happen in the first few weeks - so it would have to be carefully balanced so as not to punish people for buying the game early.
I believe that he did lower the price on Democracy 1 after speaking with folks about piracy.
For what it’s worth, $20 is about my “impulse buy” limit. If the demo is good, I don’t mind paying $20 for the game. Democracy 2 and Rock Star were both good games, so I picked them up at that price. If they were $50-60, I probably wouldn’t have picked them up at all. For games that cost that much, they’re usually on sale for a little while during the second week they’re out at an on-line store (don’t know if I am allowed to mention it, so I won’t)…which is when I pick those up.
I have to say, I’m getting “reverse buyer’s guilt” and thinking I should have paid more!
I’ll certainly be picking up Kudos 3 now (EDIT: I mean Kudos 2, of course) - especially after hearing some of the half-arsed arguments for pirating indy-games being made here.
I’m sure that cliffski would be more than happy to take more of your money!! 
One thing you have to take into consideration: No matter how much you value a certain idea or philosophy, no matter how virtuous or perfect it is, no matter if its the difference between being good or evil, if it doesn’t work in the context in which to apply it, it’s effects are very diminished. You may truly believe that pursuit of possession and wealth are not virtuous, but that does not mean everyone else around you does. At the point you try to place your beliefs upon other people and expect them to be happy, you are going against a LOT of ideals that are considered virtuous.
You say Socrates invited people to experiment with his philosophy to get them to see the error of their ways. There are a few things wrong with this when trying to place it a modern-day analogy. He did not force them to partake in his ideals. If they refused, they refused. You can view an opposing ideal as badly as you want, but you should not be trying to force someone into your viewpoint. He also did not, in any definition of the word, take away from those he invited. He did not steal their time or possessions in order to get them to side with his beliefs. He simply encouraged, and let live.
If you pirate games under the philosophy that you are following Socrate’s ideals, you (atleast of course, in my quite honest opinion) are doing everything wrong. In our modern definition of the word, you are stealing from those you pirate from. You are taking without giving, enjoying a product of someone’s time and effort without providing reward. The fact that we have essentially limitless supply means nothing when there is still value in human productivity placed towards the result. If you think that you should enjoy ‘luxury items and activites’ without having to pay for them in some form or another, then that is greed pure and simple. In no philosophy I have ever read on has value been placed on not giving a worker’s fair share of reward.
And quite frankly, if you believe in the ideals of Socrates, why are you even pirating games in the first place? Why do you place any value upon obtaining said luxury items at all? Shouldn’t you be out spending time with your friends or bettering the community?
and I guess as an after post preface… I’ve been wanting to develop games for about 6? years now. Essentially chose my computer science major in hopes of someday getting into the field, or working on my own games. Haven’t had too much time as of yet, but really desire to get started. I have only pirated one game so far in my life that I can imagine, and that was Portal (wanted to try it w/o half life 2 or TF2). I plan on still buying Orange Box once I get around to it, just have a loooot of other expenses to manage at the moment 
I have been working as a software developer for a small business located on campus for the past 3 years now. While I’m not in this situation now, I would absolutely hate the idea that if my pay depended on how well or how often the product sold, pirated versions of the software would be a sucker punch to the face. Working for years only to have people say your time wasn’t worth their money (although they still play it anyhow) is downright insulting. Reminds me of all the people that attend restaurants, eat their meal but complain to the management AFTER they are done and expect a free meal or similar afterwards.
Very interesting topic… I’m new here and not an expert in any sense… but my husband is an indie musician, and while his CDs, T-shirts, whatever will buy us a few beers once in awhile and not much more… I would never pirate anything that would hurt an indie game developer, musician, etc. Individuals working hard deserve to be paid for what they do. If the price is too high, I just don’t buy, or wait till it comes down.
I have to say that I dont really feel the same about everything though.
I download TV shows… why? Because I dont live in the US, most of my online friends DO, and I like to talk about House with them… you know, Season 5, not Season 2 that they’re playing here on late night cable (don’t even have cable). I feel okay about it. Why? Network TV is FREE… why shouldnt it be free for me too just because I dont live in the right place? Yes, its paid for by advertising… I would watch it with ads on the website… well, I might go get a snack during the ads, but those viewing it for free in the US do it too. That option isnt available, so I get it by bittorrent. I dont do it for CSI because my husband also likes it and he wants to wait for the subtitled version (and therefore we are paying for the subtitles, and its worth it). But other than CSI… there is no reason for me to wait 2 or 3 years and ruin the whole social aspect of being able to speculate about what will happen next with my friends. The industry could fix that, and they DONT. I would even pay to subscribe to a season online, if it was good quality and I got it the same night my American friends did.
I don’t pay for online games with a monthly fee. I dont PLAY them either though… I had pirated Ultima Online once in college. And it was okay. Not $20 or $30 or whatever they charge a month okay… so I just dont do it.
I pirate games that are out of print. I download abandonware that isnt really abandonware (oh yes, I am talking about you, Lucasarts). Either rerelease your game so that people CAN pay for it if they want (I absolutely would pay full price for a Vista-friendly Day of the Tentacle… but its not available, how can you fault me for not buying something that doesnt exist???), or let fans remake it and redistribute it as they will. Keeping such ties on a game that is out of print and out of date… I am not even hurting the company by pirating, because the only person who WOULD make money if I bought another copy of the DOS version (which I DO own), is the eBay seller, not Mr. Lucas.
I dont pirate if, by pirating, I believe I am hurting someone. Would I be hurting the author of these indie games if I playeed and didnt pay? Yes, I think I would. I’m not hurting anyone by downlaoding games that dont exist for sale, though…
Well after reading the rant of the OP I just had to put in my two cents.
Somewhere on page two “solistus” put him in his place and I would strongly advise anyone to read that guy’s post on a more correct socialist theory. Not to mention that Marx believed it was an evolution of economic principles and nations would evolve into communism naturally… no nation has reached that point as of yet… assuming you believe it to be true.
Anyway, the reason I am posting here is that I have found zero posts on this topic with the citing of “Risk Aversion” - a common economic principle that I feel applies here big time. I think everyone here - especially the OP - is over analyzing the situation. I don’t pirate games because I don’t have the money to buy them (albeit I don’t like spending it all for games) I pirate games because they are widely available, and there is no repercussions.
This is less a political, cost, IP, DRM, issue… This boils down to whether YOU would pick up a $50 bill you found on the street. Would you pick it up if there were 20 people around you?.. would you pick it up if there was no one around and no one saw you? I will admit that the other reasons for pirating are all valid (I HATE EA Games… I simply refuse to buy another one of their games) but would you pirate a game if there was a decent risk involved? To save $50 would you DL a game if you knew the FBI was prowling the torrent sites? I think not.
We gamers have to fight the urge to do what comes naturally - embracing arbitrage situations. Case and point: I have about 5 pirated games on my PC right now (Crysis, Bioshock, Sins of a Solar Empire, World in Conflict, Splinter Cell). I have about 8 games on Steam and another 5 I bought retail. The pirated games I have I got for different reasons, but because there was no risk I really don’t care that I have them. The games I bought however, mean something. Oblivion and Morrowind, because I love Bethesda (Fallout 3 - $50 - no problem) Warcraft III, Diablo 2, and WoW - because Blizzard supports their games and I know their quality is unmatched. Half-Life 2, TF2, Portal - because Valve supports its modding community and because Steam is a great advance in gaming. I bought these games because I WANT to support their developers… although Steam and WoW would be a tough nut to crack.
So as of this writing, I am pre-ordering Fallout 3 from newegg.com and I am pre-ordering Left4Dead on Steam… and I swear to Cliffski that if a game from Poistech ever interests me… I will gladly shell out the cash for it, because he is a developer that supports his games and because he actually asked me a question.