This is the place for you to discuss, debate, and nitpick over all general issues concerning GSB’s cruiser Camouflage Shield module.
Do not post feedback about Camouflage Shield performance as is presently stands in the GSB v1.61 patch. Those posts belong here.
The predecessor to this topic - cliffski’s “Let’s talk about firing while cloaked” thread - is here.
I am starting this thread by splitting off-topic Camo posts from the active 1.61 patch feedback thread. Some forum members need an emphatic reminder that off-topic detours (especially the lengthy ones!) are strongly discouraged on this website. If you have such an abundance of data/opinion/ranting to derail an active thread, that’s your clue to start a new thread about that specific other subject.
I still feel that de-cloaking during engagement is a bad idea in almost all cases. I mean, why would anyone pay 200+ credits for a module that might dodge maybe 1 or 2 shots during the first 5 seconds of the match? The camouflage still doesn’t create enough of a defense bonus against enemy weapon tracking to be truly useful. Just let it go on and off periodically and weapon will automatically sync to the time.
With regards to firing while cloaked, I also see the behavior where a ship equipped only with weapons that have “fire_while_camoflaged = 1” even when using a custom camouflage device that should never turn off once it goes active decloak when they begin firing on an enemy ship. I tested this with modded cruiser fusion torpedoes, modded cruiser beam lasers, and modded cruiser lasers.
I mostly disagree with this bit, since I did a test to see what kind of dodge benefit the camouflage device grants. For that test, I created three unarmed, zero speed Imperial Praetorian cruisers, one with my custom always on cloaking device, one with the standard camouflage shield, and one without either of those, and deployed each of them in the Tutorial Scenario (I deployed only one ship for each battle).
Potential Damage of Missed Shots:
Permanently Cloaked Cruiser - 81.11%
Standard Camouflage Shield Cruiser - 29.17%
No Camouflage Cruiser - 0.56%
Conclusion:
Cruiser camouflage shields are a great bonus to slow-moving and large cruisers, though they don’t provide the same level of defense as heavy armor or shielding. If “fire_while_camoflaged = 1” prevented ships from decloaking when they began firing, adding a camouflage shield would result in a significant improvement in survivability as long as the armor of the cruiser wasn’t too badly compromised by the addition of the camouflage shield and any power and crew modules necessary to run it, and would not negatively impact the performance of the fleet.
They also just stop getting targeted when something not cloaking is around. so unless your entire fleet is cloak at the same time, another ship will die in it’s place and it won’t actually yield bonus.
29.17% dodge is not that much when you consider it cost the amount of 2 shields or armor… And you are stuck with fire_while_camo weapon which probably won’t be as good as a standard Cruiser Laser, Cruiser Plasma, and most importantly Pulse Laser.
Also, unless scrambler works with cloak, cloak would be unusable on a slow fleet that absolutely needs 1 scrambler per ship to handle MWM spams.
It does have good modding potential, and yes, a perma-cloak would be good, but not the one currently in the vanilla.
With a bit more testing, I found that while the camouflage shield is active, the hit chance of anything shooting at the cloaked ship is divided by four (approximately, anyways). While I agree that in most situations you’re probably better off using something other than the camouflage shield, I don’t think the effect of the camouflage shield should be improved. With a zero speed ship and a camouflage module, you get a roughly 25% increase in the amount of weapons fire that misses, and you also get a roughly 25% increase in health. Adding that to a halfway decent weapon with the ability to fire while the ship is cloaked could potentially give a very durable vessel.
If ‘fire_while_camoflaged’ is made to work properly, then the only thing that would be needed to make a cloaking fleet a reasonable option would be good weapons which can fire while cloaked, or longer-duration cloaking (either through giving some benefit to having multiple camouflage shields, or increasing the charge rate on the current camouflage shield, or introducing a better camouflage shield). The bonus from being cloaked is good enough as is.
Camouflage shields also add 440 health, which is about 33% more than most shield modules (health and shield points) and about three times the absorb-able damage of a plate of Ultraheavy Armor (which weighs the same as the camouflage shield, and probably costs about as much more than the camouflage shield as you’d pay to increase the crew and power supply of your ship to use a camouflage shield). Dodge isn’t the only bonus that it has. I’d also say you’re more likely to get three shield generators for the cost of two camouflage shields than two shield generators for the cost of one camouflage shield. The only place where Camouflage shields are much worse than normal shields is in the crew requirement, unless you’re comparing against the Light or Basic Cruiser Shields. Calling camouflage shields 50% more expensive than shield generators is reasonable. Saying that it costs as much as two shields, though? Only if you’re using light shield generators.
Right now, since cloaked ships are not able to draw fire since they are both harder to hit and not an immediate threat, camouflage shields are not worth bringing. With a decent weapon that can fire while camouflage shields are active the camouflage shield could become very useful, especially in a fleet full of ships that cloak and can, say, project illusory vessels to draw enemy fire.
You know the raw Strength of Shield or Armor means nothing right? It’s all about the resist.
Instead of large ship + Camo, you can use a 160m ship, giving you free dodge plus many other benefits. Then fit either 2 shields or 1 shield and 2 armor, depending on how big a threat fighter is. You also must have scrambler for slow fleets and engines for fast fleets. So you can’t afford a camouflage on either fast or slow fleets.
It might be usable if it works with scramblers without de-cloaking, and a camo weapon that can replace the all utility pulse laser, otherwise it’s not worth it. Camo isn’t going to save you from missile spams, or frigate stunlock, or mass fighters. The cost of camo isn’t just the module itself, it’s also all the requirements to make it work.
While I highly doubt that holo-projection of illusory vessels would draw any more fire than armor tanks would, I advise not to speculate on it’s effectiveness until it’s out, because it is highly dependent on how the AI reacts (namely the rescuer tag). If rescuer tag bypasses the illusion (as suspected), then you probably won’t want too many of them.
They are not the same price either in this game. When I said “worth it”, I specifically mean cost efficiency in vanilla, because that’s what balance boils down to.
Sure you want as much of everything as possible if they are FREE. I will gladly take a few thousand shield strength on my ship too if I don’t have to pay for it.
Yes it does, because vanilla CAN make this work as well by changing a few things. Making it work with defensive modules like scramblers and tractors is all it takes.
As for modding, I was working at a mod a long time ago (Infinity) that I stop because of how camouflaged work. I might go back to working on it myself with so many new mechanics that works with it.
Now we are on the same page, except that 0.5 speed part (I assume you mean 0.05 cuz 0.5 is really fast). Also a cruiser rush at 0.3, or a frigate rush at 0.6+, still works.
Likewise camouflage “can” be as effective, or at least have a chance against a conventional optimized design with a few tweaks. If we don’t want to mess with the cost or duration, at least make it work with defensive modules without de-cloaking.
No, I really do mean 0.5 speed. There are a handful of cruisers in the game that can carry two or three cruiser lasers or cruiser beams or quantum blasters, and one or two shield generators, and still remain capable of going that fast, but it takes something like six or seven supercharged engines and doesn’t carry any armor. Not a particularly effective design, but occasionally something fun to play around with.
