I agree what Archduke Astro said in toto.
I thought of doing this myself, want some help? I’m willing to work in close concert with you, and anyone else that wants to do this. If you’d like to do this, I have Wave invites we can use to document our work, and we could use something like DropBox for synchronizing files. PM me if you want to take me up on the offer of help.
Agreed, a module for everything that’s basic an unoptimized would be a great place to start.
I’d rather Cliffski ran that show. I want these in the core game, not in a mod.
One other thing… I’m all for race specific weapons, and I’m okay with removing some modules, BUT, what I don’t want is to lose the ability to come up with something unique while playing. The choices still need to be there. Sometimes I load up lots of different types of weapons because it looks dang cool. If we lose the variety, the game becomes boring. “Oh look, it’s another Tribe Cruiser sporting xyz…”. I don’t want that. While I realize the current trend has people picking from a relatively small list of modules that are “The effective ones”, I don’t want to lose the feeling that I have a lot of options. I’d rather just nerf Tribe and call it good if that was going to be the case. But if Cliffski can do the above and still keep the choices in game, I’m all for it… Those two requirements might be at odds though…
Which is different from all cruiser laser spam + some beams?
Reread my post. I already mentioned that and included that in my response.
New race-specific modules need not just be quantitatively different in all cases. They can be qualitatively different in some cases.
I have experimented with Empire shields with low total shield values, but very very high recharge rates. They can get overwhelmed, but are virtually invulnerable to lesser attacks. I even made a fighter shield for the Empire. In addition the Empire could get hulls with built in power on a massive level—ancient, anti-matter powerplants that no one else has. They could get antimatter torpedoes, too. More efficient engines, though perhaps fewer hitpoints for all this delicate antimatter stuff.
Armor can vary in price and weight, too, by race.
Some might have a doctrine of stand-off attack. They can get missiles that are VERY long range. In return, they have only a finite number of shots (for now a salvo_interval of 999999 works) since the missiles are so very large.
There are many possibilities.
These changes would make the game almost unplayable for any newcomer. They have to get to grips with the mechanics. Hard enough. All the choices they have at the start, its over whelming. Eventually you begin to recognise some weapon, and see it working.
Same when you fight another fleet. You see that same weapon, and prehaps you see what its good against, and what you need to change.
Now multiply that by uniquie modules for each race (Totally un-needed, dont replace all). Soon you have hundreds of things you dont understand, beating you for reasons you cant follow. Sounds like a fun game, right?
Also, the more races there are, the harder its going to be to balance, even with non unique modules. I think Cliffski is making a mistake with a new race.
How long did it take Starcraft to balance? Its a game famous for its totally unique approaches to each of its races. How long do you think your patiance will last on this total overhal of yours?
^^^ that is an absurd oversimplification.
“since there are more modules when you figure out all the races, players will be too baffled and not want to play.” Right. Cause players can’t handle that Armor I, Armor II, and Armor III is slightly different between races.
Doesn’t matter, you build a hull and you use whatever the best for that design is. If the total AV is slightly different than your design for another race who cares? You still have a ship with “medium” armor all over it which is the best you can afford on that design.
Also, the number of modules might actually be fewer per design screen since you won’t see some you see now depending on the race.
It’s better, period.
No offense, but just about every RTS out there does this: each faction gets their unique units with a few common roles. An example could be Red Alert 2, where there is a good amount of diversity.
The Alliance and Empire don’t have enough of a different play style, or at least an effective difference. So, you must either boost stats, add extra unique modules, or both. Or overhaul the entire mass. The Alliance does get 3 unique weapons… but they’re not entirely clear what use they are (their beam laser, for one, is only better by a little tracking?) or even if they’re useful.
We need a set of core modules plus racial “flavors”, in my opinion.
Changes like tater made to the Empire, with fighter shields and really tough shields, etc, really argues my point. If you fix them, you have to rebalance them with the other races. If their shield resistance is higher than most other weapons, as it should be, then the Empire is more vulnerable to shield bombs. (And therefore, should have slightly less efficient PD.) All this must be taken into account, and without modules unique to each race or at least semi-restricted from others, the whole game could be imbalanced easily.
All told, it’s less time to start from the bottom and rebuild it completely. Not that much aside from hull bonuses and the availability of modules need to be changed.
No, they mightnt be able to handlt the different armours, when even adding 1 armour can actually get you killed, compared to laveing it alone. Or a modules. Or how to compare all the different weapons between them.
Most RTS game do have unique units. They also mostly have 3 races. We already have 5, with a 6th on the way. The amount of possibiltes, when all are unique is a balancing nightmare. Race A has to have a way of being superior over B,C,D,E,F.m And a way of beeing beaten by them. Same for all other races.
Imagine changing 1 modules now. Prehaps it makes them better against B,C but worse against D,E,F. 1 tweak could shatter balance. Also, there would be a 6 times higher learning curve, which is already quite steep in this game.
I seriously dont think i would of played it if i had to get used to 6 times the amount of modules. I still havent used a good many. PD II or some frigate stuff. At least when i do learn one, i can apply that knowledge to anthor race, to get me started.
Wow, I don’t find the though of race-specific versions of things even slightly daunting. The more the better, frankly.
Look at it this way, you start with one race, then unlock more. If they share everything as they do now, the new races are pretty boring and meaningless. Same modules, different hull. Yawn.
If they were all new (or mostly new, or even partially new) then every new unlocked race would make the game new. That’s a PLUS since it’s a whole new set of designs to try out instead of just building a slight variant of what worked for the feds.
Yeah, its good for us who know the game. If it can be keept balance, i would prefer it.
But it would suck for people just buying it.
Not a good bussiness strategy to make it hard for people to even get started in your game.
Have you ever played Dwarf Fortress? Supposed to be the most indepth game ever. And from the list of stuff on the todo list, it is. Very interesting stuff. I like the idea of it.
But playing it is a total nightmare. So hard to get into, feedback is minimal. Not sure why stuff is happeneing.
Every so often someone will get stuck in and learn it all again.
Learning curves are essential to enjoyment of your average gamer. Too shallow, you get bored. Too steep, you get frustrated.
As it stands now, maybe the races arent that different.
But i started playing challanges as empire. Found it to be much tougher, requiring much different tactics. Its about the ship build. And the different hulls do provide a huge amount of differences.
Would you believe that i think empire got on of the best armour tanks in the game?
Ship has 14 starting power, allowing engine, crew, weapon and repair module. No powerplat, maximises armour you can put on. Weapon so people dont ignore you.
Search for the unique builds, theres the interest.
I never did find the learning curve, I must admit. Then again, I’m the kind of guy who will number-crunch his strategy before actually trying it. But there is a trick to making good ships.
The only learning curve that does exist is comprehending the exact interactions of “resistance”/“damage absorbable” versus “armor piercing”/“shield piercing”, and maybe tracking (but, it’s not that complex either).
So with a basic knowledge of how the modules work, completely unique modules per side would make no difference. (Except when designing for a specific enemy.)
I can relate to a number of the entirely valid concerns floating around on the last few pages of this thread. The disconnect that I’m seeing here is that it is reading as an increasingly black-or-white argument, as follows:
A) All the races should be fundamentally equivalent (which arguably leads to a lack of diversity); or
B) Every race should be completely unique (which arguably increases game complexity and reduces options within each race).
Problem is, there’s a lot of gray area in there. That’s what game balancing and development is all about. Now is finding the right balance between common and unique modules an awful lot of work? Yes it is. No question there. But we have a community of apparently fairly intelligent beings here who are constantly troubleshooting and evaluating the game by the simple method of playing it and posting in these forums. From what I’ve seen, Cliff is extremely good at responding to player concerns, and at balancing his workload between developing new stuff and adjusting existing stuff. And I have some faith that lessons learned in balancing existing game components are being integrated into any future expansions.
In short, I guess all I’m saying is that I don’t see this as quite the massive issue that it is starting to appear based on some of the comments in this thread.
Well, all told I’ll pretty much be content with what Cliff does. Whatever it is. That’s why I bought the game: it felt fun, the demo seemed generally balanced, and my OCD tendencies got an outlet.
I’d love it if the races had more distinction than just their appearance. (IE, more unique modules per race.) But… that’s just me. That’s why I never enjoyed Stardock’s GalCiv, since all the techs differed you’d think that the weapons, ships, and various things would too … but no, ship design was very much universal in its traits.
I’ll “settle” for a rebalanced set of the races, however Cliff accomplishes it.
I’m just obsessive enough with doing it my way that it won’t necessarily matter what he does. I’m such a tweak fanatic that I’ll probably wind up making mods to adjust things until I can no longer play the game. (I did with Tiberium Sun…) Again, it’s just my opinion and obsession for tweaking.
I just don’t see that the Tribe is so over powered. The Rebels, Tribe, and Federation all seem to be on the same ground (though perhaps the tribe could use a 75% hull bonus instead of 100%). It’s just that the Empire and Alliance seem to need a reimagining of their play-style, with unique modules to help emphasize that.
It would be interesting to see higher numbers on the hull bonuses, something noticeable, like:
Empire: +25% shields, with built-in power plant (say 20 power on a given cruiser).
Tribe: +70% hull integrity, no armor penalty, -25% shield penalty
Rebels: +20% speed
Alliance: +40% armour bonus
Federation: 10% bonus on hull integrity, shields, armor, and speed.
Every race should have available a 2-weapon (hardpoint) fighter hull. Every fighter hull should have at least 1.5 power (with 1.0 power, you have to put in a power supply just to get a rocket launcher with your engine).
The Empire should either have smaller footprints so as to be able to better ‘pack together,’ or they should be given more modules on their current designs. The large, low-weapons hulls they have are the least useful cruiser hulls in the game. Their strength is in cheap fighters, but beyond that they don’t have a lot to offer. I find the Empire to be very difficult to win with. I’ve not played much as Federation, but Alliance and Rebels are better than Empire.
Alliance has a 9-hardpoint cruiser hull. This makes them the spam kings.
Rebels have good speed in their fighters. They have the great, Atlantis bomber hull as well. Their cruisers are potentially fast, but are usually weighed down by shield/armor modules.
Tribe has the best cruiser speed, and the most robust fighters. I would say that Tribe need access to shields. Putting a shield on every cruiser automatically mitigates any potential opposing rocket fighters. There is no simpler countermeasure which so drastically cuts down on an opponent’s options, than simply adding a cheap yellow shield generator to every cruiser. If you took out the tribe’s ability to field shields in any way, shape, or form; then the tribe would be building cruisers loaded with anti-fighter weapons. The tribe would go from ‘first to worst.’ Anyway, I think their hitpoint bonus is a tad high, but see no reason to penalize their armour. Armour simply isn’t that great. Making it -50% is the same as making it unfeasible; so there might as well be no tribal armour. Take away their shields entirely though and you have one race with no quick and easy countermeasure to rocket fighters.
On the idea of custom weapons for every race; there could be one race-specific equivalent for each of the 3 main categories; beam, kinetic, and missile. In a given race’s area of specialty, they could have even more variants. I like the Tribal-specific weapons, and the Empire, Alliance, and Rebel-specific ones. Perhaps they could be made more effective, such as the tribal cruiser howitzer, or the Alliance lightning beam (just give that one a bit more range).
Maybe start the game out with the basic weapons which are shared by all races. Make the race-specific ones unlockable. This would make things less confusing to the beginner.
Get rid of module ‘upgrades’ which take up screen space and are barely incremental in their increased effectiveness. Instead, have gratuitous upgrades, which cost a lot to field in a ship, but have noticeably improved effectiveness over their standard-version counterparts.
I’d also like to see more unbalanced cruiser hulls, with either ‘too many’ hardpoints or standard modules. A Rebel cruiser hull with 16 standard modules and 4 hardpoints could be a very interesting speed ship. A cruiser with say 15 hardpoints, and 4 standard modules would be nothing but a weapons platform. Maybe dole such extreme designs out amongst the races, depending upon what their reputation is. The 15/5 hardpoint/standard hull of the Empire is an example of this as it already exists. Again though, the Imperial frigate/cruiser hulls are too big for their number of slots. It might be interesting to see that same 15/5 Empire hull as, say a 22/4 or something like that.
As it is, the game is very well-balanced. That is to say that it could be a lot worse. Leaving the question of modules and hull changes aside, a few minor tweaks could probably balance this one within the format that it’s already in: 1) just a little less hitpoints for the Tribe 2) dual-weapon fighter hulls for everyone 3) either more module slots, or smaller footprint for the Empire ships.
Currently, the Tribe is the easiest to quickly build a powerful fleet with. It seems they have more ‘margin of error’ than other races, which so often must have their fleets ‘fine tuned’ to a given situation. The Alliance and Rebels are more of a challenge to field, and this is what makes them interesting. I imagine that the Federation is about the same as those two. The Empire is indeed the redheaded stepchild of this game.
Idea for empire: rather than a straight shield bonus, give them 1) more hardpoints per hull (since they have an ENORMOUS problem concentrating fire) and 2) the big one: remove the shield stacking penalty.
I don’t think anyone is saying this.
Right now, with the exception of the Tribe, there is effectively no difference between any of the races. None at all that matters.
The Tribe is unique because of the hamfisted tool of the hull bonuses only.
What many of us would like is for the races to be MORE unique than they are now—where the baseline is that they are not really unique at all.
The only way to do this where there is more control of the balance is to force the races to use more race-specific modules by disallowing others. The fact that 90-something % of the modules are common to all races makes the game too homogeneous.
I wouldn’t mind if the Empire get something like a 25% + for the shields. Stacked Shields just aren’t that great.
Too high is dangerous. I know everyone is pushing for more ‘diversity’ but there is a point where these extreme sort of things will hurt the challenge system.
I already have different weapon fittings I use for Tribe vs the other races, because killing Tribe deployments places radically different requirements on what stats matter vs other races. A challenge is posted to everyone - I don’t want to see ‘play as empire only’ challenges or ‘please no tribe’ because it’s too difficult to array a fleet against multiple races at once. It strikes me as against the spirit of the system.
I’m fine with different races having different solutions to the same “problem” (e.g. alliance using fusion torpedoes as a low-power armor breaker instead of standard beams) but the “problem” - armored targets in this case - has to stay one of the game’s mechanics and not race selection. I don’t want to worry about fielding an alternative type of AA because the standard AA might not be able to track any +20% speed rebel fighters, while also having to worry about +40% armor tanks if the opponent chooses alliance instead.
^^^ I agree completely, I think the hull bonus idea is a good one for incremental differences, but too high breaks things—which is why I’d prefer making more modules race specific since it offers FAR more control from a balance standpoint.