The Immigration system Revamp

Democracy 4
22

I think immigration to shift around ethnic minorities can absolutely be relevant. Especially with relatively small countries where few people already makes a large difference, if, usually, their direct neighbours are having a conflict that makes lots and lots of people migrate there.
For instance, Jordan has a population of about 10M, but about 2M are Palestinian, and for a while they had about 1M Iraqis (most of them have returned, leaving behind about 130k)
And more recently, 1.4M Syrians fled there.

At least according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan#Immigrants_and_refugees

That’s a far cry from the 90-100% the game likes to claim are ethnic minorities in any given country, but it really is a significant number that is going to have large repercussions for this nation.
Most countries are simply not facing that kind of extreme, largely local-instability-driven influx though. So perhaps this would be better adjusted through a special variable in the future. For most places, the differences over time are gonna probably be in the 0.1 - 1% range, perhaps. (This is a complete guess, mind. I have not checked any stats what so ever to arrive at that number and am happy to be proven wrong)

1 Like
23

I agree, It should stick to common sense, from 90% to 0.1-5%, for example if a refuge crisis is happening a.k.a event, the goverment should have a choice in accepting or declining, Accepting will be Pro-Liberal Pro-Socialist, Anti-Conservative, Anti-Capitalist, but would add to Enviromental damage as we have seen in California, Paris, Calais, Where migrant hotspot’s are where they sleep in graveyard’s and spread disease’s, it would also increase crime and increase welfare cost By a BIG NUMBER, higher unemployment and other thing’s, but a plus would be in Internationalism Population increase

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24

Lets all be careful to remember that immigration is not always due to a crisis, or dirven by any negative factors. The USA is entirely built on immigration, and many immigrants are highly paid and highly skilled.

The game is attempting to (in a very simple, game-like way) represent both the immigration of skilled workers that boosts the economy, and is fuelled by a booming economy with lots of jobs, and also immigration that can cause disharmony.

Obviously thats really tough with just a few entries in a spreadsheet :smiley: I do accept that situations in the game where ethnic minorities are 90% of the population is clearly a bit of a balls-up equations-wise and it will be looked at!

Also remember that the game is hoping to be global. Immigration and ethnic minorities in Israel, the US, France and South Korea are all very different phenomena. Producing a global model is always hard.

5 Likes
25

I agree for the most part, While USA is not a nation of immigrant’s, because the people who created it were not Indian’s, but let’s talk about the 21st century and most of them were from Europe.

I also think that, the player a.k.a the President/Dictator Should have a say in Populism or Globalism, but try to keep realistic, there is a reason why Trump’s third biggest voting state was California

26

The idea that refugees and economic migrants are that different is fairly erroneous. Refugees still need jobs, and economic migrants still want to carry on their values. (Also, don’t indulge the European delusion their race problems are just so unique that they could never do what the American’s do.)

I would cap it closer to 60 than to 50 or 40. Once majority groups becoming pluralities is perfectly plausible.

27

A minority is a minority, when it is >49%, if we speak in math term’s if it 50% or over, then it isn’t a minority anymore

28

By that measure, the US would be 100% minorities pretty soon.

29

I guess you failed in History and Math.
The [White, non-Hispanic or Latino population make up 61% of the nation’s total, with the total White population (including [White Hispanics and Latinos] ) being 77%, so ethnic minority in USA is: 23%/39%
Sources: Wikipedia, which in it self sources from the USA Census

30

You can have minorities without a majority. If the US became 40% white, 20% Asian, 20% black, and 20% Hispanic, the latter three are minorities despite collectively making up the majority of the population.

3 Likes
31

Ethnic minorities mean’s ALL OF THEM, not Sub-catagory

32

It depends on if we are talking foreign born or minority. Foreign born is more of a problem for a country to deal with and if it gets to more than 10% i think you will have severe political problems. I think current events show how relevant this issue can be; see eastern bloc countries, Poland, EU, Brexit and the United States. I think all the recent political turmoil is related to high immigration. (Do i think it should be? No. Just making the observation)

Foreign born and minority are conflated in this game and countries can deal with large minority populations. Its high immigration that is the more triggering problem. In this game in about 8 turns the immigrant population can make up more than 50%, that should trigger a political revolution.

I guess ethnic minorities should be capped at 60% but that’s a very unusual case and at this point everyone is an minority.

What really needs to be tracked is percent of immigrants. This needs to be capped at 20% and severe political repercussions if it goes over 10%.

1 Like
33

Good thread now that it’s gone back to game mechanics! Thanks folks! :slight_smile:

1 Like
34

A hard slider policy on immigration rates would be a good first step. Why do I need to set up a border wall, biometric checks, immigrant taxes at max just to keep the ethnic minority % to 50% playing as Canada?

I feel like I am Mao, Stalin or Hitler doing that but if I don’t then minority population % hits 90+% by the end of the second term as Canada. It is not realistic at all and I am not Satan, I promise.

Another thing to consider is ethnic minority alignment in the game. If you culturally assimilate a pop they should no longer be grouped into the minority group because they are no different to another pop in the game culturally. This is assuming that RACIAL tension in that playthrough is low. The game seems to be modeling minorities on race and culture when race and culture should be separated completely.

For example, if pop is a racial minority (immigrant OR non-immigrant) then I suppose that cannot change. But negative affects can be mitigated through low racial tension.

BUT if said pop is a cultural minority (immigrant only) this can change through assimilation policies thereby lowering that groups % of population over time because they now identify with the cultural majority. These pops can be racially majority yet still culturally minority.

This model would better reflect the games obvious aim to employ the “Ethnic minority” group to model racism in your playthrough.

Therefore, why not split ethnic minorities into two groups then?
-Group 1 are the ethnic minorities (racial) which population % is manipulated by immigration.
-Group 2 is cultural minorities (non racial) which population % is manipulated by assimilation and immigration.

If I am white in Ethiopia, I am a minority. If I was born white in Ethiopia, am I not Ethiopian? If I am Ethiopian, why am I a minority?

If I am black in Poland, I am a minority. If I was born black in Poland, am I not Polish? If I am Polish, why am I a minority?

If I moved to Ethiopia from Poland, or Poland from Ethiopia, learned the language, adopted the customs, embraced the culture, gained citizenship. Am I not a citizen? If I am a citizen, why am I a different than that citizen.

This is what the game needs to model better.

35

ATM the game treats ethnic minority like any other demographic, because its membership is driven purely by immigration. So non-minorities become minorities due to immigration, as opposed to immigration bringing new people into the country who are minorities.

1 Like
36

This is exactly absolutely part of the problem.

37

No matter how many anti-immigrant policies you have, even if you shut down all your airports, as we see in this pandemic, you won’t stop immigration entirely. Immigrants will always find a chink in your fence, because that’s how real life works. And this is reflected in game. Granted, balancing it is of course, a good idea, but immigration should never drop too low. Unless you’re North Korea. Then ruin your economy and run an ethno-nationalist totalitarian state, ideally as Japan, and then you shall finally have hardly any immigration at all! :smiley: